Talk:Collective Shout: Difference between revisions

(15 intermediate revisions by 6 users not shown)

Line 18:

:::::Apparently the protesting of NSFW/Mature video games started specifically against ''No Mercy''. Itch de-indexed the games, as far as I can tell it wasn't because of any new legislation, they did it without notifying any customers. I disagree with much of CS's positions, but Itch wasn't forced to do what they did the way they did it. They chose profit over their customers, it would cost money to go through each title one by one. The games that I found CS reference besides GTA are games I don't want to describe on this wiki.

:::::Which payment processors are involved, I can't find a name? [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 15:00, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

::::::At least for itch.io, it's visa and mastercard. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 16:11, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

:::::This incidents opens up the debate about financial censorship, the role of payment processors as content moderators, and the impact on creative freedom. They don't want to get rid of every game ever, the games in question are objectively for adults only. ''Daddy, Say My Name'', ''Sex Education With Richard And Mr. Dickson'', ''Short Horns'', based on the descriptions, the games content and themes violated the credit co. policies. The group is not main antagonist. I really wanna make it clear that I'm not defending their positions i.e. porn, abortion, etc. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 15:49, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

::::::They also want to take down games like gta, which means many, if not most, games that aren't porn are under their scope. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 16:14, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

:::::::It's like if an environmentalist lobbies and gets laws passed ending the production of combustion engines to save the planet. You cant buy a gas engine anymore, but you can still buy a car. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 16:48, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

::::::::CS has tried to [https://www.collectiveshout.org/prostitution_survivors_call_on_target_to_withdraw_gta_v_for_extreme_violence_against_women remove GTA] in the past. The reason the payment processors didn't make steam take down games like gta is likely because the payment processors knew that removing those games wouldn't lessen the risk of damaging their PR, so it's more like if an environmentalist tried to lobby for all methods of transportation except biking banned, but only got gas powered cars banned. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 13:23, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

:I think this group is a bit fascist and only incidentally anti-consumer. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 16:59, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

:'''Caitlin Roper''', the campaigns manager said Collective Shout's campaign was only intended to remove rape and incest games.

:''We did not set out to get all NSFW content removed. We specifically targeted rape games, games that promoted sexualised violence against women and children,'' she said.

:[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-03/adult-video-games-removed-from-steam-after-campaign/105597886][Https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-03/adult-video-games-removed-from-steam-after-campaign/105597886 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-03/adult-video-games-removed-from-steam-after-campaign/105597886] [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 19:23, 5 September 2025 (UTC)

::Regardless of their intentions, it has had the effect of removing customers' right to engage in ''lawful'' transactions. What good is "right to own" if you have been rendered unable to obtain something in the first place?

::<br />

::And to add: The group ''is'' one of the main parties to the controversy regardless of one's position on the subject. It's not as though Collective Shout's involvement is merely incidental when it was pressure ''from them'' that led to Mastercard, Visa, and PayPal suddenly caring a lot more about video games based around sexual violence or otherwise deeply disturbing themes. — [[User:Sojourna|Sojourna]] ([[User talk:Sojourna|talk]]) 00:23, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

:::I am not saying their involvement was incidental, I'm saying that this talk page is larger than an article on CS's systemic anti-consumer practices could be. I started an article about the DeIndexing, tell me what you think. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 00:44, 6 September 2025 (UTC)

==Final argument, regardless of outcome==

@[[User:Mr Pollo|Mr Pollo]]

:The term anti-consumer should be reserved for practices that prioritize profit or control over consumer rights without ethical justification. Collective Shout's advocacy, while controversial, is rooted in preventing harm rather than suppressing choice for financial gain. Labeling them as anti-consumer overlooks their motivations and conflates them with corporations whose actions are objectively more harmful to consumers. Their methods can be critiqued as overly broad or collaterally damaging, but not inherently anti-consumer in the same way as corporate practices.

[[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 08:22, 7 September 2025 (UTC)

:I have discussed this with @[[User:Keith|Keith]] and we have agreed that the Collective Shout article is relevant to the wiki for a few reasons:

:#All of Itch.io's NSFW tagged games were deindexed as a result of Collective Shout's actions [https://itch.io/updates/update-on-nsfw-content]

:#Said games did not violate Steam and Itch.io's terms prior to the incident

:#Like @[[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] mentioned before, their campaign against GTA V [https://www.collectiveshout.org/win_target_and_kmart_remove_r18_game_from_stores] was heavily misguided (as killing women isn't required in the storyline or to progress in the game).

:#The wider impact this incident can have on consumer's rights in the future.

:We appreciate your bringing this up in the talk page, as not many users wish to share their opinions on existing articles. [[User:Mr Pollo|Mr Pollo]] ([[User talk:Mr Pollo|talk]]) 16:03, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

::I think part of the issue here is that, if we took such a definition of anti-consumer, there could be a lot of very conusmer-relevant things that we may not end up talking about, despite them being very relevant/important. I do think that this article has grown beyond where it needs to be, and might need to be pared back however. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 16:13, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

:::I may have misunderstood your point @[[User:DzLamme|DzLamme]] (thinking that you were arguing for the article's non-inclusion, rather than commenting on the use of the term 'anti-consumer'). in any case, I'll replace the deletion notice with a relevancy discussion notice, as i don't think there's a good reason for the article to be deleted in short order. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 16:15, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

==Propose reversion to prev. version==

it looks like since revision https://consumerrights.wiki/index.php?title=Collective_Shout&oldid=23853 - the article has both ballooned in size, and has also lost a lot of its citations. It seemed to be in a reasonable place at that point, so might it be best for us to revert it to that state? (minus the deletion notice, i don't think that was necessary as of the mentioned revision) [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 16:24, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

:I think the "Methods and Campaigns" section is still relevant as a header, but could be condensed into a paragraph or two. It shows the the tactics they use and why they were so effective in their aggressive activism. NPOV is key [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 16:42, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

:I agree. There is also the fact that the current version repeats itself a lot. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 18:37, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

:I agree. More context can be added where needed, but the wiki should strive for conciseness in articles. As it is I believe the article wades too much into the weeds. — [[User:Sojourna|Sojourna]] ([[User talk:Sojourna|talk]]) 20:48, 8 September 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 18: / Line 18: @@
 :::::Apparently the protesting of NSFW/Mature video games started specifically against ''No Mercy''. Itch de-indexed the games, as far as I can tell it wasn't because of any new legislation, they did it without notifying any customers. I disagree with much of CS's positions, but Itch wasn't forced to do what they did the way they did it. They chose profit over their customers, it would cost money to go through each title one by one. The games that I found CS reference besides GTA are games I don't want to describe on this wiki.
 :::::Which payment processors are involved, I can't find a name? [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 15:00, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
+::::::At least for itch.io, it's visa and mastercard. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 16:11, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
 :::::This incidents opens up the debate about financial censorship, the role of payment processors as content moderators, and the impact on creative freedom. They don't want to get rid of every game ever, the games in question are objectively for adults only. ''Daddy, Say My Name'', ''Sex Education With Richard And Mr. Dickson'', ''Short Horns'', based on the descriptions, the games content and themes violated the credit co. policies. The group is not main antagonist. I really wanna make it clear that I'm not defending their positions i.e. porn, abortion, etc. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 15:49, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
+::::::They also want to take down games like gta, which means many, if not most, games that aren't porn are under their scope. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 16:14, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
+:::::::It's like if an environmentalist lobbies and gets laws passed ending the production of combustion engines to save the planet. You cant buy a gas engine anymore, but you can still buy a car. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 16:48, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
+::::::::CS has tried to [https://www.collectiveshout.org/prostitution_survivors_call_on_target_to_withdraw_gta_v_for_extreme_violence_against_women remove GTA] in the past. The reason the payment processors didn't make steam take down games like gta is likely because the payment processors knew that removing those games wouldn't lessen the risk of damaging their PR, so it's more like if an environmentalist tried to lobby for all methods of transportation except biking banned, but only got gas powered cars banned. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 13:23, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
+:I think this group is a bit fascist and only incidentally anti-consumer. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 16:59, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
+:'''Caitlin Roper''', the campaigns manager said Collective Shout's campaign was only intended to remove rape and incest games.
+:''We did not set out to get all NSFW content removed. We specifically targeted rape games, games that promoted sexualised violence against women and children,'' she said.
+:[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-03/adult-video-games-removed-from-steam-after-campaign/105597886][Https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-03/adult-video-games-removed-from-steam-after-campaign/105597886 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-08-03/adult-video-games-removed-from-steam-after-campaign/105597886] [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 19:23, 5 September 2025 (UTC)
+::Regardless of their intentions, it has had the effect of removing customers' right to engage in ''lawful'' transactions. What good is "right to own" if you have been rendered unable to obtain something in the first place?
+::<br />
+::And to add: The group ''is'' one of the main parties to the controversy regardless of one's position on the subject. It's not as though Collective Shout's involvement is merely incidental when it was pressure ''from them'' that led to Mastercard, Visa, and PayPal suddenly caring a lot more about video games based around sexual violence or otherwise deeply disturbing themes. — [[User:Sojourna|Sojourna]] ([[User talk:Sojourna|talk]]) 00:23, 6 September 2025 (UTC)
+:::I am not saying their involvement was incidental, I'm saying that this talk page is larger than an article on CS's systemic anti-consumer practices could be. I started an article about the DeIndexing, tell me what you think. [[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 00:44, 6 September 2025 (UTC)
+==Final argument, regardless of outcome==
+@[[User:Mr Pollo|Mr Pollo]]
+:The term anti-consumer should be reserved for practices that prioritize profit or control over consumer rights without ethical justification. Collective Shout's advocacy, while controversial, is rooted in preventing harm rather than suppressing choice for financial gain. Labeling them as anti-consumer overlooks their motivations and conflates them with corporations whose actions are objectively more harmful to consumers. Their methods can be critiqued as overly broad or collaterally damaging, but not inherently anti-consumer in the same way as corporate practices.
+[[User:DzLamme|DzLD]] ([[User talk:DzLamme|talk]]) 08:22, 7 September 2025 (UTC)
+:I have discussed this with @[[User:Keith|Keith]] and we have agreed that the Collective Shout article is relevant to the wiki for a few reasons:
+:#All of Itch.io's NSFW tagged games were deindexed as a result of Collective Shout's actions [https://itch.io/updates/update-on-nsfw-content]
+:#Said games did not violate Steam and Itch.io's terms prior to the incident
+:#Like @[[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] mentioned before, their campaign against GTA V [https://www.collectiveshout.org/win_target_and_kmart_remove_r18_game_from_stores] was heavily misguided (as killing women isn't required in the storyline or to progress in the game).
+:#The wider impact this incident can have on consumer's rights in the future.
+:We appreciate your bringing this up in the talk page, as not many users wish to share their opinions on existing articles. [[User:Mr Pollo|Mr Pollo]] ([[User talk:Mr Pollo|talk]]) 16:03, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
+::I think part of the issue here is that, if we took such a definition of anti-consumer, there could be a lot of very conusmer-relevant things that we may not end up talking about, despite them being very relevant/important. I do think that this article has grown beyond where it needs to be, and might need to be pared back however. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 16:13, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
+:::I may have misunderstood your point @[[User:DzLamme|DzLamme]] (thinking that you were arguing for the article's non-inclusion, rather than commenting on the use of the term 'anti-consumer'). in any case, I'll replace the deletion notice with a relevancy discussion notice, as i don't think there's a good reason for the article to be deleted in short order. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 16:15, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
+==Propose reversion to prev. version==
+it looks like since revision https://consumerrights.wiki/index.php?title=Collective_Shout&oldid=23853 - the article has both ballooned in size, and has also lost a lot of its citations. It seemed to be in a reasonable place at that point, so might it be best for us to revert it to that state? (minus the deletion notice, i don't think that was necessary as of the mentioned revision) [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 16:24, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
+:I think the "Methods and Campaigns" section is still relevant as a header, but could be condensed into a paragraph or two. It shows the the tactics they use and why they were so effective in their aggressive activism. NPOV is key [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 16:42, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
+:I agree. There is also the fact that the current version repeats itself a lot. [[User:Lowspeedguy|Lowspeedguy]] ([[User talk:Lowspeedguy|talk]]) 18:37, 8 September 2025 (UTC)
+:I agree. More context can be added where needed, but the wiki should strive for conciseness in articles. As it is I believe the article wades too much into the weeds. — [[User:Sojourna|Sojourna]] ([[User talk:Sojourna|talk]]) 20:48, 8 September 2025 (UTC)