John Deere employee responds to Right to Repair: Difference between revisions
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The video<ref>{{Cite web|title=John Deere employee responds to Right to Repair|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8pEHA7EfIQ|publisher=YouTube | The video<ref>{{Cite web |author=Louis Rossmann |date=20 Mar 2020 |title=John Deere employee responds to Right to Repair |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8pEHA7EfIQ |publisher=YouTube |language=en |format=video |ref=Rossmann-video-1}}</ref> mostly reads out the letter that has been sent by the John Deere employee. | ||
==The letter== | ==The letter== | ||
<blockquote>Thank you for taking the time to educate yourself on matters you do not fully understand. I appreciate what you are doing fighting for right to repair and wish you luck. However I would also like for you to have accurate information in order to make yourself more credible. The video I would like to start with is the one published on Jan 26 titled “John Deere dealerships are lobbying AGAINST right to repair. Farmers, please help me out.”<ref>{{Cite web|title=John Deere dealerships are lobbying against right to repair. Farmers, please help me out here.|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38O1zEuLOMM|publisher=YouTube | <blockquote>Thank you for taking the time to educate yourself on matters you do not fully understand. I appreciate what you are doing fighting for right to repair and wish you luck. However I would also like for you to have accurate information in order to make yourself more credible. The video I would like to start with is the one published on Jan 26 titled “John Deere dealerships are lobbying AGAINST right to repair. Farmers, please help me out.”<ref>{{Cite web |author=Louis Rossmann |date=27 Jan 2020 |title=John Deere dealerships are lobbying against right to repair. Farmers, please help me out here. |url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38O1zEuLOMM |publisher=YouTube |language=en |format=video |ref=Rossmann-video-2}}</ref> Much of your commentary in [''sic''] inaccurate and I will address your points one at a time and give proof as to why. | ||
One of the things you talk about is farmers do not want to race their tractors. This is not entirely true. There are competitions farmers compete in with their tractors called “tractor pulls.” If you would like to see this google NTPA. Or go to ntpapull.com. This is the home page of the National Tractor Pullers Association. This is the highest level of the competition in the sport equivalent to Major League Baseball. YouTube some videos of “NTPA tractor pull” and you will see this is Formula One level of competition. And just like baseball has major leagues, minor leagues, AAA, college games, high school, all the way down to neighborhood kids playing at the park, tractor pulling has the same structure. When I was younger I would compete in these at the county level with the same tractors we farmed with. Similar to how people might street race with production cars. And we did modify them to produce more power to compete better. I was doing this at 15 years old. | One of the things you talk about is farmers do not want to race their tractors. This is not entirely true. There are competitions farmers compete in with their tractors called “tractor pulls.” If you would like to see this google NTPA. Or go to ntpapull.com. This is the home page of the National Tractor Pullers Association. This is the highest level of the competition in the sport equivalent to Major League Baseball. YouTube some videos of “NTPA tractor pull” and you will see this is Formula One level of competition. And just like baseball has major leagues, minor leagues, AAA, college games, high school, all the way down to neighborhood kids playing at the park, tractor pulling has the same structure. When I was younger I would compete in these at the county level with the same tractors we farmed with. Similar to how people might street race with production cars. And we did modify them to produce more power to compete better. I was doing this at 15 years old. | ||
The tractors used in these professional pulling competitions are purpose built for that sole use. However farmers do modify current production tractors to produce more power in the field. This is usually referred to as “chipping.” The most common brand used by my customers is Steinbauer. www.steinbauer.cc. These devices change the fuel mapping to the engine generating more power. This would be very similar to overclocking a CPU. The reason they do this is very simple. While Deere makes higher powered tractors, they cost more. So instead of buying a bigger tractor they buy a small one and add a “chip” to it in order to increase horsepower. Deere does not want customers to do this for the same reason Intel will not let you overclock a low end i5 running at 3.4GHz and overclock it to 4.6GHz. They want you to buy the faster chip so they lock out the ability to overclock them. And just like CPU’s the more power the more heat they produce. On CPU’s you would upgrade the stock cooler to maybe a water cooled system. On tractors the cooing capacity is designed into the machine for a specific horsepower and not easily upgradeable. Also the transmissions, drive shafts, axles, etc are designed to withstand a certain amount of power. | The tractors used in these professional pulling competitions are purpose built for that sole use. However farmers do modify current production tractors to produce more power in the field. This is usually referred to as “chipping.” The most common brand used by my customers is Steinbauer. www.steinbauer.cc. These devices change the fuel mapping to the engine generating more power. This would be very similar to overclocking a CPU. The reason they do this is very simple. While Deere makes higher powered tractors, they cost more. So instead of buying a bigger tractor they buy a small one and add a “chip” to it in order to increase horsepower. Deere does not want customers to do this for the same reason Intel will not let you overclock a low end i5 running at 3.4GHz and overclock it to 4.6GHz. They want you to buy the faster chip so they lock out the ability to overclock them. And just like CPU’s the more power the more heat they produce. On CPU’s you would upgrade the stock cooler to maybe a water cooled system. On tractors the cooing [''sic''] capacity is designed into the machine for a specific horsepower and not easily upgradeable. Also the transmissions, drive shafts, axles, etc are designed to withstand a certain amount of power. | ||
Another point you mention is farmers are not trying to add to pollution by changing emission standards. This is also not entirely accurate. Google “Deere DPF delete kit” or go to allcartuning.com. These are kits used to change the engine software and components to remove emission devices. This often removes the EGR valve (exhaust gas recirculation), DPF (diesel particulate filter), DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst), SCR (selective catalytic reduction), AOC (ammonia oxidation catalyst), and DEF injection system (diesel exhaust fluid). This is done to save money. DEF is consumed by the engine at a rate of typically 3-6% of fuel consumption. So for every 100 gallons of fuel you will need 5 gallons of DEF. This system is on all modern diesel engines including pickup trucks and semi trucks. Owners remove this system because DEF does not increase performance of the engine. It is injected into the exhaust stream to aid the AOC in removing NOx (nitrous oxides) from the exhaust. This increase the operating cost of the machine but adds no financial benefit. Also the engine mapping can be changed without these emission devices to use less fuel at the same power, however it no longer meets EPA emission standards. | Another point you mention is farmers are not trying to add to pollution by changing emission standards. This is also not entirely accurate. Google “Deere DPF delete kit” or go to allcartuning.com. These are kits used to change the engine software and components to remove emission devices. This often removes the EGR valve (exhaust gas recirculation), DPF (diesel particulate filter), DOC (diesel oxidation catalyst), SCR (selective catalytic reduction), AOC (ammonia oxidation catalyst), and DEF injection system (diesel exhaust fluid). This is done to save money. DEF is consumed by the engine at a rate of typically 3-6% of fuel consumption. So for every 100 gallons of fuel you will need 5 gallons of DEF. This system is on all modern diesel engines including pickup trucks and semi trucks. Owners remove this system because DEF does not increase performance of the engine. It is injected into the exhaust stream to aid the AOC in removing NOx (nitrous oxides) from the exhaust. This increase [''sic''] the operating cost of the machine but adds no financial benefit. Also the engine mapping can be changed without these emission devices to use less fuel at the same power, however it no longer meets EPA emission standards. | ||
You discussed in your video certain repairs must be completed by software used by the dealership even if the repair is performed by the customer. This is accurate in very specific situations. The short answer to this is because of emissions. I will explain. A current production 8R series tractor can have around 45 on board controllers. The customer has access to the DTC’s (diagnostic trouble codes) of all 45 controllers through the touch screen display in the cab along with a short description of the fault. This is vastly superior to the ability of most cars. If your “check engine” light or “service engine” light comes on in your car you must use a scan tool to retrieve the code. This is not necessary in these tractors as this function is built In to the on board software. Of these 45 controllers the customer can erase the DTC’s themselves on 44 of them with the push of some buttons and the vast majority of the codes on the 45th. The 45th being for the engine. Of the ones the customer can erase it is usually not necessary to do so once the repair is made. When the controller detects the fault has been repaired the code is changed to “stored” instead of “active” and the machine will resume normal operations with no need to interact with the software. Now to achieve optimal performance again some sensors and devices do need to be recalibrated. Majority of the time this is accessible to the customer as well using the on board diagnostics. Now to address the times when it is not accessible to the OBD and dealership laptop must be used. These are called “latched DTC’s.” They are used when a sensor detects a problem with the engine causing it not to meet EPA emission standards. When a fault like this occurs it can physically damage the emissions devices (DOC, DPF, AOC, SCR.) These are very expensive as they are similar to the catalytic converters on your car. To date the most expensive system I have priced out was $18,000.00. If farmers had the ability they would clear this DTC every time it came up and continue to use the machine unaware it was destroying itself and causing excessive pollution. By creating these “latched” codes it does not allow the code to be cleared and keeps the machine in a de-rated condition forcing the problem to be addressed instead of ignored. Yes, my customers ignore the warning on the display and continue to use the machine until the timer in the software runs out “usually a few minutes” and puts the engine in a de-rate mode. When there power and speed are reduced to half that gets their attention. This de-rate mode also helps to protect the engine from any further damage. | You discussed in your video certain repairs must be completed by software used by the dealership even if the repair is performed by the customer. This is accurate in very specific situations. The short answer to this is because of emissions. I will explain. A current production 8R series tractor can have around 45 on board controllers. The customer has access to the DTC’s (diagnostic trouble codes) of all 45 controllers through the touch screen display in the cab along with a short description of the fault. This is vastly superior to the ability of most cars. If your “check engine” light or “service engine” light comes on in your car you must use a scan tool to retrieve the code. This is not necessary in these tractors as this function is built In to the on board software. Of these 45 controllers the customer can erase the DTC’s themselves on 44 of them with the push of some buttons and the vast majority of the codes on the 45th. The 45th being for the engine. Of the ones the customer can erase it is usually not necessary to do so once the repair is made. When the controller detects the fault has been repaired the code is changed to “stored” instead of “active” and the machine will resume normal operations with no need to interact with the software. Now to achieve optimal performance again some sensors and devices do need to be recalibrated. Majority of the time this is accessible to the customer as well using the on board diagnostics. Now to address the times when it is not accessible to the OBD and dealership laptop must be used. These are called “latched DTC’s.” They are used when a sensor detects a problem with the engine causing it not to meet EPA emission standards. When a fault like this occurs it can physically damage the emissions devices (DOC, DPF, AOC, SCR.) These are very expensive as they are similar to the catalytic converters on your car. To date the most expensive system I have priced out was $18,000.00. If farmers had the ability they would clear this DTC every time it came up and continue to use the machine unaware it was destroying itself and causing excessive pollution. By creating these “latched” codes it does not allow the code to be cleared and keeps the machine in a de-rated condition forcing the problem to be addressed instead of ignored. Yes, my customers ignore the warning on the display and continue to use the machine until the timer in the software runs out “usually a few minutes” and puts the engine in a de-rate mode. When there [''sic''] power and speed are reduced to half that gets their attention. This de-rate mode also helps to protect the engine from any further damage. | ||
I tell you this not to combat you on right to repair, but to educate you on the things you are unaware of. In most cases I am for right to repair and would like it expanded in the industry. I believe people advocating for right to repair need to have accurate information to seem credible when appearing in front of a legislative body, or on a YouTube video. I have greatly simplified many of these topics and focused primarily on Deere’s current production premium heavy ag equipment. I can expand or clarify on any of this more if you would like, or answer any questions you may have. There are also other more technical discussions being held in the industry relating to this topic regarding thigs [''sic''] like data management, third party access to CAN BUS [''sic''], GPS steering system, and other situations that would be hard to explain without a background knowledge. Also please let me know how I did explaining this as I feel I will be doing it more in the future and would like to do a competent job of it. | I tell you this not to combat you on right to repair, but to educate you on the things you are unaware of. In most cases I am for right to repair and would like it expanded in the industry. I believe people advocating for right to repair need to have accurate information to seem credible when appearing in front of a legislative body, or on a YouTube video. I have greatly simplified many of these topics and focused primarily on Deere’s current production premium heavy ag equipment. I can expand or clarify on any of this more if you would like, or answer any questions you may have. There are also other more technical discussions being held in the industry relating to this topic regarding thigs [''sic''] like data management, third party access to CAN BUS [''sic''], GPS steering system [''sic''], and other situations that would be hard to explain without a background knowledge. Also please let me know how I did explaining this as I feel I will be doing it more in the future and would like to do a competent job of it. | ||
Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you again, | Thank you for your time and I look forward to hearing from you again, | ||
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I have heard people complain about the lack of parts availability. This does not come from the dealer or corporate. We will sell you every part to make a brand new tractor from parts if you would like. We can also get many OEM parts dating back to before 1960. The common ones we stock. I think what they might be referring to is aftermarket parts. I don't know how much control Deere has on aftermarket part availability. Once again I think supply has a lot to do with it. With being so few machines there just isn't much of a market for it. The only major company I am aware of for aftermarket parts is A&I products. There are a few other smaller ones but I don't know of any that deal with controllers. Also Deere hardly makes any of their own electronics. It is all outsourced to companies like Delco, Bosch, Lucas, Phoenix, Delphi, and others. So even electronic components inside of these devices I would think would be largely up to them to supply. And I know some of them are available because there is an independent company called Ag Express that specializes in agriculture electronic component repair and harnessing. Now maybe there is more going on behind the scenes I am unaware of stopping production of aftermarket parts for electronics but I don't know right to repair is going to fix it. As a side note you may want to try and contact Ag Express out of Sulphur Springs Indiana www.agexpress.com. They may be able to give you a lot more detail on the electronic repair side of things outside of the dealership than I could. | I have heard people complain about the lack of parts availability. This does not come from the dealer or corporate. We will sell you every part to make a brand new tractor from parts if you would like. We can also get many OEM parts dating back to before 1960. The common ones we stock. I think what they might be referring to is aftermarket parts. I don't know how much control Deere has on aftermarket part availability. Once again I think supply has a lot to do with it. With being so few machines there just isn't much of a market for it. The only major company I am aware of for aftermarket parts is A&I products. There are a few other smaller ones but I don't know of any that deal with controllers. Also Deere hardly makes any of their own electronics. It is all outsourced to companies like Delco, Bosch, Lucas, Phoenix, Delphi, and others. So even electronic components inside of these devices I would think would be largely up to them to supply. And I know some of them are available because there is an independent company called Ag Express that specializes in agriculture electronic component repair and harnessing. Now maybe there is more going on behind the scenes I am unaware of stopping production of aftermarket parts for electronics but I don't know right to repair is going to fix it. As a side note you may want to try and contact Ag Express out of Sulphur Springs Indiana www.agexpress.com. They may be able to give you a lot more detail on the electronic repair side of things outside of the dealership than I could. | ||
Probably the largest real issue that could be fixed by right to repair is lack of third party diagnostic equipment. This was one of the big ones is [''sic''] the automotive industry. If you want to communicate with the machine you must purchase software from Deere. There is no other vendor that supplies a tool that will commentate [''sic''] with Deere equipment. If there was I would own it even having full time access to the dealer level software. Reason being redundancy. When someone comes out with a software update something isn't going to work right, almost guaranteed. In automotive this information had to be made available to other manufacturers. That's how for under $100 you can buy the cheap little code readers at your local auto parts store and not go to the dealership to read the code. These cheap little readers are very limited in what they can do. The professional grade fully functional versions of these are considerably more. I just asked my tool dealer what the top of the line one would cost. He replied with $11,695 for the device and $1499 for a one year subscription. This is a Snap-On brand with a model name of Zeus. For comparison the software from the dealership costs $2340 [''sic''] a year's subscription and you supply your own computer. If you don't want to download it the USB to install it is $35 and the cable to connect to a tractor is $1376.93. The software can run off a web browser on line, however I have the fully installed version on my computer so it works offline. It takes up over 140 GB on my drive. It contains almost every technical manual publication ever made by Deere. It takes a little bit of computer power to efficiently run. So the factory option is still probably more affordable at a total of $3751.93 plus the computer to run it than what the third party option would be at over $13,00 [''sic''] initial investment. But even at $3751 it would be hard to justify for an individual to own the program themselves. My dealership charges $105/hour for my time. So a customer would need me to work on a problem using the software for over 35 hours that first year to get a ROI and 22 hours every following year to cover the price of the subscription. I don't see this very likely. I do spend over 35 hours on customer machines but very rarely that much time diagnosing with the software. | |||
I could go on but it is getting very late and I feel I am making too many typos and grammatical errors. I will continue this another time. | |||
I have no problem with you using this information just so it is not being manipulated, twisted, distorted, edited, or used out of context to change its intended meaning. I am happy to assist however I can. Keep in mind though that I am not in any position of authority to make any definitive claims on the factual correctness of any of this. This is all information I have gathered over my years of training and experience along with educated assumptions. If there is a specific point or topic you would like verified I can try my best to find material at my disposal to validate it. Also if anyone presents information to you proving anything I said false please forward it to me. I like to be correct [''sic''] when I'm wrong so as to not spread inaccurate information and to educate myself. | |||
I will continue this another time explaining where I feel much of the farmers frustration comes from and why they incorrectly feel Right to Repair will fix it. | |||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||