Talk:Main Page: Difference between revisions

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:Current TOS score average reading level of 14th grade (Junior in college), estimated reading time 42 minutes just for the TOS. A 2021 version of Discord TOS featured in "EULAs of despair". Linked TOS 5.62 Tolstoys, over 275 hours.[[https://www.pilotlab.org/eulas-of-despair]] [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 16:43, 9 October 2025 (UTC)

::The discord link is in several other places (e.g. the left hand panel, the edit notice when moving a page). May be well to change those pages also to land on a caution page before just taking to Discord. [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 05:25, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

::I noticed that some other editors also are reluctant to use discord. See [[Talk:Main_Page/Archive_2#Please_whitelist_creativecommons.org]] Thanks. [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 06:49, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:::+1 to this, never signed up for an account, only to download things when people are too lazy to not force discord to get it. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 07:15, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:@[[User:Keith|Keith]] Hoping you can respond to this when you get the chance, since you mentioned this issue before. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 12:39, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

::Yep. I think @[[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]]'s idea of a warning page makes sense. It would save a lot of questions, I'll add it onto my to-do, though if anyone here wants to take a crack at it (assuming I haven't by the time you read this) then that would be helpful too. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 19:44, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

:::I've created a basic draft on [[User:Raster/Sandbox|my sandbox]] that staff could use to start with. It is not great, but I consider this to be an urgent matter that I wanted to bump this topic in some way. Thank you [[User:Raster|Raster]] ([[User talk:Raster|talk]]) 17:37, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

::::The layout of this reminds me of the abuse filter messages used, it has a very similar style. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 17:41, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

:While I do agree on this that it is gated behind discord, I do wanna make a request to the staff that we need a matrix or a SimpleX chat group chat for this one to exist (Yes, simpleX has a lot of room to spare for a lot of users). There is a reason why discord is made a software page here somewhere in this wiki. [[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] ([[User talk:Jerry468|talk]]) 14:30, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

::@[[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] I love that idea (as someone who doesn't use discord)! I noticed IRC is often used on Wikipedia, although I haven't really done any research on it so it could be irrelevant. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 15:04, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

:To be fair, help isn't gated behind discord. The process is just as slow there as it is here many times. It depends on the availability of admins, which is really just Keith by himself.

:That said, moving moderation discussions away from discord has been mentioned and is a lengthy process that is hoped to be achieved soon. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 17:09, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

::Ah, it's worse there than I thought! It's generally easier for me and other non-Discord users to be able to see moderation discussions, maybe put a page in the Project namespace talking about the discussions as a first step? Would be helpful! [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|AnotherConsumerRightsPerson]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 17:39, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

:::Thank you for the perspective Beanie Bo. It was more the appearance of having discord link at the top of the page (and I keep finding it other places). Gave that FOMO feeling. I didn't mean criticism of the help here (or on discord), just the frustration of not knowing where to ask. [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 06:32, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

::::You're right, and it's a very valid point. The noticeboard might need an overhaul anyway, so thanks for bringing it to our attention [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 16:48, 22 October 2025 (UTC)

==Where to ask questions on the wiki?==

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::Basically this^

::It might be best to ping specific moderators since not many of them are frequently on or are aware of all the Talk pages. And still, the noticeboard is the best bet for all questions, especially if you don't have one specific mod in mind. You can also ping someone there too. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 20:55, 10 October 2025 (UTC)

:I think here is probably the main place, but you're right that this should be more cleanly documented [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 19:47, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

== Add a main page list of major notorious companies ==

==Add a main page list of major notorious companies==

Please add to the main page a list/section of major companies known to have violated consumer rights, with direct links to each company’s article (e.g., Alphabet (Google), Microsoft). This would make it easier for average users to find out about it. [[User:EBones|EBones]] ([[User talk:EBones|talk]]) 09:19, 18 October 2025 (UTC)

:Hello, and welcome! I agree that additional navigation pages could help make this wiki more accessible. However, I wonder how one could define such a list in a way that would keep it manageable. It could easily become an ever-expanding thing, or, if limited to a set number of entries, how would you focus it so that there wasn't constant back-and-forth about who should be on it? (Just my thought on how to improve the suggestion, if you want to pursue it.)

:I have no idea whether such a thing would fly with the moderators here. [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 05:37, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

::My instinct is that this would end up as a very long list with a lot of unproductive arguments over who should and shouldn't be on it [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 19:45, 19 October 2025 (UTC)

::Since the focus of the list/section is the average user, we could limit it to 10 products or companies from popular markets that have high market share. For example, operating systems are a very popular market compared to e.g. 360 cameras, with a clear leader, "Microsoft Windows," that has many consumer-unfriendly practices, such as requiring online accounts, etc. And we could also use that to link to more consumer-friendly competitors' wiki pages.

::As it’s often pretty clear which markets are popular and who’s leading and also who the biggest competitors are, there shouldn’t be much debate, and if there still is some debate, we could just use a poll on Discord instead of arguing back and forth.

::A short example:

::'''Biggest Offenders and Alternatives'''

::Alphabet: Google Search (Alternative: DuckDuckGo), Chrome (Alternative: Firefox, Ungoogled Chromium)

::Microsoft : Windows 11 (Alternative: MacOs, Linux Distro) [[User:EBones|EBones]] ([[User talk:EBones|talk]]) 13:01, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

:::Those are mega-corporations that everyone knows commits consumer abuse on a daily basis. There is no real benefit to including them on the main page. Also, there is a search bar for that very reason. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 13:05, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

::::It is meant to help '''''average''''' users learn more about the practices of the companies behind the products they use and to consider alternatives.

::::Many people outside our circle know little about common consumer violations and never heard of alternatives such as DuckDuckGo. It should be on the main page, since again it is meant for the average user and could serve as a beginners guide.

::::I think it is a very common issue among consumer rights advocates that they don't properly consider how the average person acts and thinks. [[User:EBones|EBones]] ([[User talk:EBones|talk]]) 13:34, 20 October 2025 (UTC)

:::::Does something like this exist someplace else (as a resource we might link to)?

:::::Especially since the examples you picked are all out of software, it seems like something somebody might have done already? If not, is there some theme article that such content could naturally fit into? (e.g., is it about owning your computer?)

:::::A few things to think about if you want to pursue it:

:::::Is the purpose to highlight/direct people to content here, or something else?

:::::(e.g., I couldn't find an article here about Google search. If not about navigating here, the front page may not be best place for it.)

:::::May want to refine/clarify the selection criteria for categories. (e.g., I think cellphones may be more popular than desktops in consumer space, so why a desktop OS? How is MacOS an alt. to Win 11 if it doesn't run on same hardware? I think MacOS had a bunch of consumer issues similar to Win 11, so not sure it clearly better.) Also there was some policy about mentioning alternative products someplace in [[Consumer Rights Wiki:Wiki policy index]].

:::::If I think of major consumer areas, I think: shelter, food, communications and utilities, transportation/automobiles, work, medicine/health, entertainment, financial.

:::::Could there maybe be another way to approach the same sort of beginner guidance you want? You might look at the list of article types and see if there is some place that it might fit.

:::::There is this guide, [[Customer Privacy Guide]] which somebody was working on. However I would check with the moderators before working on that, since it does not seem to fit the stated policy guidance on guides. [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 06:28, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

==Can we just replace PrivacyGuides.org?==

There are several reasons why and since there are going to be some people who are open source purists, and those that believe that privacy is not a spectrum (because its either you have privacy or not). I do want to make suggestion based off of this as there is a darknet wiki that does say it is a laxist community, saying it is possible to have "have privacy on Windows and Mac" which is completely false if you dug deeper. Normally this was said before and I am gonna say it here to do a little bit of a favor for all of us, replace PrivacyGuides.org into something else, if there isn't post-pone it until something new pops up. There are evidence of criticisms that I have noticed and I think it is reasonable to not recommend a laxist community that has no merit at all. I am not here to be rude, I am here to provide technicalities, logic, and reason, because nobody should be spied on by little brothers.

I would expect a peaceful discussion on this matter over here, I just want to bring the attention of how horrible or lenient it is for somebody who wants to recommend such a thing, I have seen it before. [[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] ([[User talk:Jerry468|talk]]) 14:40, 21 October 2025 (UTC)

@@ Line 23: / Line 23: @@
 :Current TOS score average reading level of 14th grade (Junior in college), estimated reading time 42 minutes just for the TOS.  A 2021 version of Discord TOS featured in "EULAs of despair".  Linked TOS 5.62 Tolstoys, over 275 hours.[[https://www.pilotlab.org/eulas-of-despair]]  [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 16:43, 9 October 2025 (UTC)
+::The discord link is in several other places (e.g. the left hand panel, the edit notice when moving a page).  May be well to change those pages also to land on a caution page before just taking to Discord. [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 05:25, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
+::I noticed that some other editors also are reluctant to use discord.  See [[Talk:Main_Page/Archive_2#Please_whitelist_creativecommons.org]] Thanks.  [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 06:49, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
+:::+1 to this, never signed up for an account, only to download things when people are too lazy to not force discord to get it. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|<i><b>AnotherConsumerRightsPerson</b></i>]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 07:15, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
+:@[[User:Keith|Keith]] Hoping you can respond to this when you get the chance, since you mentioned this issue before. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 12:39, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
+::Yep. I think @[[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]]'s idea of a warning page makes sense. It would save a lot of questions, I'll add it onto my to-do, though if anyone here wants to take a crack at it (assuming I haven't by the time you read this) then that would be helpful too. [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 19:44, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
+:::I've created a basic draft on [[User:Raster/Sandbox|my sandbox]] that staff could use to start with. It is not great, but I consider this to be an urgent matter that I wanted to bump this topic in some way. Thank you [[User:Raster|Raster]] ([[User talk:Raster|talk]]) 17:37, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
+::::The layout of this reminds me of the abuse filter messages used, it has a very similar style. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|<i><b>AnotherConsumerRightsPerson</b></i>]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 17:41, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
+:While I do agree on this that it is gated behind discord, I do wanna make a request to the staff that we need a matrix or a SimpleX chat group chat for this one to exist (Yes, simpleX has a lot of room to spare for a lot of users). There is a reason why discord is made a software page here somewhere in this wiki. [[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] ([[User talk:Jerry468|talk]]) 14:30, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
+::@[[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] I love that idea (as someone who doesn't use discord)! I noticed IRC is often used on Wikipedia, although I haven't really done any research on it so it could be irrelevant. [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|<i><b>AnotherConsumerRightsPerson</b></i>]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 15:04, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
+:To be fair, help isn't gated behind discord. The process is just as slow there as it is here many times. It depends on the availability of admins, which is really just Keith by himself.
+:That said, moving moderation discussions away from discord has been mentioned and is a lengthy process that is hoped to be achieved soon. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 17:09, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
+::Ah, it's worse there than I thought! It's generally easier for me and other non-Discord users to be able to see moderation discussions, maybe put a page in the Project namespace talking about the discussions as a first step? Would be helpful! [[User:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|<i><b>AnotherConsumerRightsPerson</b></i>]] ([[User talk:AnotherConsumerRightsPerson|talk]]) 17:39, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
+:::Thank you for the perspective Beanie Bo.  It was more the appearance of having discord link at the top of the page (and I keep finding it other places).  Gave that FOMO feeling.  I didn't mean criticism of the help here (or on discord), just the frustration of not knowing where to ask.  [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 06:32, 22 October 2025 (UTC)
+::::You're right, and it's a very valid point. The noticeboard might need an overhaul anyway, so thanks for bringing it to our attention [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 16:48, 22 October 2025 (UTC)
 ==Where to ask questions on the wiki?==
@@ Line 35: / Line 49: @@
 ::Basically this^
 ::It might be best to ping specific moderators since not many of them are frequently on or are aware of all the Talk pages. And still, the noticeboard is the best bet for all questions, especially if you don't have  one specific mod in mind. You can also ping someone there too. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 20:55, 10 October 2025 (UTC)
+:I think here is probably the main place, but you're right that this should be more cleanly documented [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 19:47, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
-== Add a main page list of major notorious companies ==
+==Add a main page list of major notorious companies==
 Please add to the main page a list/section of major companies known to have violated consumer rights, with direct links to each company’s article (e.g., Alphabet (Google), Microsoft). This would make it easier for average users to find out about it. [[User:EBones|EBones]] ([[User talk:EBones|talk]]) 09:19, 18 October 2025 (UTC)
+:Hello, and welcome!  I agree that additional navigation pages could help make this wiki more accessible.  However, I wonder how one could define such a list in a way that would keep it manageable.  It could easily become an ever-expanding thing, or, if limited to a set number of entries, how would you focus it so that there wasn't constant back-and-forth about who should be on it?  (Just my thought on how to improve the suggestion, if you want to pursue it.)
+:I have no idea whether such a thing would fly with the moderators here.  [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 05:37, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
+::My instinct is that this would end up as a very long list with a lot of unproductive arguments over who should and shouldn't be on it [[User:Keith|Keith]] ([[User talk:Keith|talk]]) 19:45, 19 October 2025 (UTC)
+::Since the focus of the list/section is the average user, we could limit it to 10 products or companies from popular markets that have high market share. For example, operating systems are a very popular market compared to e.g. 360 cameras, with a clear leader, "Microsoft Windows," that has many consumer-unfriendly practices, such as requiring online accounts, etc. And we could also use that to link to more consumer-friendly competitors' wiki pages.
+::As it’s often pretty clear which markets are popular and who’s leading and also who the biggest competitors are, there shouldn’t be much debate, and if there still is some debate, we could just use a poll on Discord instead of arguing back and forth.
+::A short example:
+::'''Biggest Offenders and Alternatives'''
+::<u>Alphabet: Google Search</u> (Alternative: <u>DuckDuckGo)</u>, <u>Chrome</u> (Alternative: <u>Firefox, Ungoogled Chromium</u>)
+::<u>Microsoft : Windows 11</u> (Alternative: <u>MacOs, Linux Distro)</u> [[User:EBones|EBones]] ([[User talk:EBones|talk]]) 13:01, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
+:::Those are mega-corporations that everyone knows commits consumer abuse on a daily basis. There is no real benefit to including them on the main page. Also, there is a search bar for that very reason. [[User:Beanie Bo|Beanie Bo]] ([[User talk:Beanie Bo|talk]]) 13:05, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
+::::It is meant to help '''''average''''' users learn more about the practices of the companies behind the products they use and to consider alternatives.
+::::Many people outside our circle know little about common consumer violations and never heard of alternatives such as DuckDuckGo. It should be on the main page, since again it is meant for the average user and could serve as a beginners guide.
+::::I think it is a very common issue among consumer rights advocates that they don't properly consider how the average person acts and thinks. [[User:EBones|EBones]] ([[User talk:EBones|talk]]) 13:34, 20 October 2025 (UTC)
+:::::Does something like this exist someplace else (as a resource we might link to)?
+:::::Especially since the examples you picked are all out of software, it seems like something somebody might have done already?  If not, is there some theme article that such content could naturally fit into?  (e.g., is it about owning your computer?)
+:::::A few things to think about if you want to pursue it:
+:::::Is the purpose to highlight/direct people to content here, or something else?
+:::::(e.g., I couldn't find an article here about Google search.  If not about navigating here, the front page may not be best place for it.)
+:::::May want to refine/clarify the selection criteria for categories.  (e.g., I think cellphones may be more popular than desktops in consumer space, so why a desktop OS? How is MacOS an alt. to Win 11 if it doesn't run on same hardware?  I think MacOS had a bunch of consumer issues similar to Win 11, so not sure it clearly better.)  Also there was some policy about mentioning alternative products someplace in [[Consumer Rights Wiki:Wiki policy index]].
+:::::If I think of major consumer areas, I think: shelter, food, communications and utilities, transportation/automobiles, work, medicine/health, entertainment, financial.
+:::::Could there maybe be another way to approach the same sort of beginner guidance you want?  You might look at the list of article types and see if there is some place that it might fit.
+:::::There is this guide, [[Customer Privacy Guide]] which somebody was working on.  However I would check with the moderators before working on that, since it does not seem to fit the stated policy guidance on guides.  [[User:Drakeula|Drakeula]] ([[User talk:Drakeula|talk]]) 06:28, 21 October 2025 (UTC)
+==Can we just replace PrivacyGuides.org?==
+There are several reasons why and since there are going to be some people who are open source purists, and those that believe that privacy is not a spectrum (because its either you have privacy or not). I do want to make suggestion based off of this as there is a darknet wiki that does say it is a laxist community, saying it is possible to have "have privacy on Windows and Mac" which is completely false if you dug deeper. Normally this was said before and I am gonna say it here to do a little bit of a favor for all of us, replace PrivacyGuides.org into something else, if there isn't post-pone it until something new pops up. There are evidence of criticisms that I have noticed and I think it is reasonable to not recommend a laxist community that has no merit at all. I am not here to be rude, I am here to provide technicalities, logic, and reason, because nobody should be spied on by little brothers.
+I would expect a peaceful discussion on this matter over here, I just want to bring the attention of how horrible or lenient it is for somebody who wants to recommend such a thing, I have seen it before.      [[User:Jerry468|Jerry468]] ([[User talk:Jerry468|talk]]) 14:40, 21 October 2025 (UTC)